Shoko Uehara, also known as JON, is a musician, tarot reader, and all around interesting person currently residing in Tokyo. She’s most known outside of Japan for her 1996 album Smoke, released on Tzadik as part of the label’s New Japan series highlighting avant-garde music from the island nation. I spoke to Uehara-san on April 10th, 2024 to discuss her music career, pump organs, and why she wears a dog costume when she performs. Junko Okada acted as our interpreter.

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Shy Clara Thompson: How’s your day going?

Shoko Uehara: I just woke up. It’s 8 a.m. in Japan.

Oh! Good morning!

Good morning!

You’re currently on tour, right?

I had a tour in March for about a week. Besides my JON project, I sing French chanson too and was performing that kind of music. Now I’m back in Japan.

Let’s get started! What are some of your earliest memories with music?

My parents didn’t listen to music much. However, when I was in junior high school I got good grades and I asked my parents for a copy of The Beatles’ White Album as my reward. That was my first encounter with music!

When did you start making your own music? Do you remember when you got your first instrument?

I played piano when I was young. My parents were very strict, so I didn’t really enjoy playing music much until I started living by myself. Moving out, I bought a pump organ from a vintage store and that was the first time I started making original music.

What were you listening to when you started making music for yourself? Still the Beatles, or had you gotten into different stuff by then?

At the time I bought my organ, I was listening to The Residents, DEVO, Daniel Johnston, Jad Fair, stuff like that. I wanted to start a digital synth band but I couldn’t find anyone to join me. I decided to go solo. My parents had a dog, and I wrote my first song from the perspective of the dog to express its feelings.

Is this why you wear the dog costume? How much later until that became part of your image?

To express the feeling of a dog, I thought I couldn’t be in a human body—so I decided it was better to dress as a dog. I was also influenced by David Lynch; I liked Twin Peaks and wanted to express the obscure atmosphere of his works when I performed.

So you went solo because you couldn’t find a band. Where did you play your first show?

I had friends in the Tokyo underground scene, so I had opportunities to play at some of the live houses in the area.

Did you find people to play with once you got into that underground scene?

I mostly played by myself, but on my first album I played with Tatsuya Yoshida of Ruins.

How did you get into recording? Were you just doing it independently?

When I started, I was just recording myself at home on cassette tapes. There were two magazines that I sent those tapes to, and they ended up liking my recordings. That’s how I got to release my first CD!

Your next album after that was released on John Zorn’s label Tzadik. How did that happen?

I gave my private cassette tapes to Tatsuya Yoshida. At that time, John Zorn was living in Kōenji, Tokyo and Yoshida-san was in contact with him. He passed the tapes along to Zorn and he really liked them, so that’s how I was able to release an album on his label.

Did you know much about Zorn at the time? Did you like his music?

Yes. I listened to his music and got to see him play live. My first international performance was at the Knitting Factory in New York. I was invited there by John Zorn!

What was it like performing outside of Japan for the first time?

I loved it! The feedback was amazing. I got a strong reaction from the audience that I never get in Japan. The American audiences are much more intense.

What are Japanese audiences typically like?

They put on a smile, but they don’t really make any noises or get loud (laughter).

Do you still get to do many shows outside of Japan?

Because of the language barrier I don’t organize international trips by myself, but I’ve been invited to Europe a few times. I’ve recently performed in France and Switzerland!

You mentioned singing chanson earlier. How did you get into that? Is that the type of music you play in France?

She passed away, but the late singer Masako Togawa—a chanson vocalist—used to run a club in Shibuya. I do tarot reading as a side job, and used to do readings at Togawa’s club. I got familiar with chanson music by spending a lot of time there between 2000 and 2010.

I wanted to ask about the tarot readings. I see that you have a website where you post them daily! When did you start doing them?

I started doing them in 1999 and never stopped!

Have you been in touch with Zorn since playing that show in New York?

Not really. He used to release a lot of music from Japanese musicians on his label, but he hasn’t really been doing that very much lately.

By now you’ve worked with a lot of different musicians and done many different genres. When you tour, are you mostly still playing solo or do you ever support other artists?

Once or twice a year I’ll play in a band with other musicians, but it’s usually just me!

I wanted to ask about some studio collaborations that you’ve done. My personal favorite is Inuhiko, your project with the drummer from Gauze. How did the two of you connect?

I met Hiko-san in 2008. He was in Gauze at that time, and he was doing duo projects with lots of other musicians. He suggested that, instead of playing improvised music, he wanted to play drums along to songs I had already written. We released two albums like this.

Do you like the way your songs sound in that hardcore punk context?

Yes, it’s very unique and interesting!

What about your collaboration with Yasushi Utsunomia? That one’s pretty unique too.

The JON project started in 1994, but Satoru Higashiseto, who runs Forever Records in Osaka, organized the recording with Utsunomia-san in 1996.

It’s a pretty unique record for the way it was recorded, isn’t it?

We recorded throughout the year—spring, summer, autumn, winter—and the recording was done outside. We got recordings of cicadas, birds, and other things. We used all the sounds from outside.

Was there any direction from Utsunomia-san or were you given freedom to perform however you wanted?

There was no direction from Utsunomia-san, just suggestions for things I could do that might be interesting.

How did collaborating with him differ from Hiko? What kind of adjustments do you make depending on who you’re collaborating with?

With Utsunomia-san, I just played how I normally do. But since Hiko plays his drums so loud, I had to play my organ loud to match. I cut a hole in the organ and then put a microphone inside so that it wouldn’t be drowned out by the drums.

It seems like you’re singing louder too!

Yes (laughter). I had to sing very loudly!

How do you write your songs?

Most of the time, it comes from humming in my daily life. That’s how I start composing them.

Your music is often described as being like children’s music or nursery rhymes. Do you see it that way?

I’m not consciously trying to make them like nursery rhymes, but it may sound like that because of the way I like to write.

A lot of your songs are about animals. It’s safe to assume you like animals, right?

I’m not good with humans, but I love cats!

One of your albums is about Ochonan-san, your cat. You can even hear him in one of the songs. It’s cute!

Yes, the cat would sometimes sing along with me.

Was that a happy accident, or did you want to include him as part of the record?

I was playing organ at home, and the cat wanted to play with me—so it only seemed right to include him!

What is it about people that make them more difficult to deal with than cats?

(laughter) I’m not good at talking with people unless there’s a shared purpose, like making music together. I generally prefer to spend time by myself.

When you perform and wear the dog costume, is that sort of a statement about how you feel closer to animals?

When I’m wearing the dog costume, it’s the dog singing. I feel awkward being a human, so I decided to be a dog instead. It feels more natural to be something else.

Is it something that gives you more confidence?

When I first started performing, I was afraid of getting up in front of people. I also didn’t like how I looked, so wearing a costume made it easier.

I’m curious about your choice of instrument. You play pump organ and harmonium, and they’re very noisy. You can hear them creaking and flexing as you play. Is that something you like about them?

I have a lot of pump organs. Each one makes a different sound when I pump on the pedals and it’s important that I’m able to capture the unique qualities they have when I play them.

How did you get so many?

Pump organs aren’t produced in Japan anymore. I own five of them and I found them all at antique shops.

How do you decide when one is worth adding to the collection? What qualities do you check for?

Oftentimes, old pump organs are broken. First, I have to check if it actually works. I shop for them on internet auctions too, and I always ask for a sample recording so I can hear that it’s working and what it sounds like. If it’s different from one that I already have, then I want it.

Are they hard to take care of? Do you know how to repair them?

Pump organs are pretty simple on the inside, kind of like a harmonica. There’s not much maintenance involved, but sometimes I need to change the cloth inside that pumps up the air—like an accordion. Once the cloth gets old, it needs to be replaced. That can sometimes get expensive.

What’s your favorite thing about performing live?

Um. (long pause) I like the vibration between myself and the instruments. And even though I don’t like people much, I like when I’m feeling the music along with an audience.

Music becomes a way to connect with people a little easier, then?

When I was young, I didn’t like playing with other children, but I would find common ground with them through music and movies. In a way, it feels like I’m giving back to the music because it helped me navigate so many social situations growing up.

Do you feel like music is still helping you?

Yes, absolutely.

You do a lot of things besides playing music, like tarot readings. What else do you do?

Are you asking about work or hobbies?

I’d like to hear about either!

For work, I do tarot readings. That’s how I make money besides playing music. As far as hobbies, ever since my cat passed away I’ve been traveling a lot.

Why does tarot reading appeal to you?

I find it interesting that I’m receiving a message from somewhere I don’t know. It’s a very mysterious experience. I’m basically an interpreter between the client and the messages that I’m receiving.

Could you do a tarot reading for me?

(laughter) Sure. Just one second. (pause)

I pulled two cards for today. One says you’ll get to do a lot of fun things and you’ll be bestowed with a variety of new information. It’s going to be a fun day!

The advice card says that you should spend some time for yourself. Instead of waiting on another person’s opinion, follow your own intuition!

Thank you! I’ll take that to heart today. So, I have one more question. What’s one thing you like about yourself?

(laughter) I’ve never thought about that!

Is there anything we didn’t get to that you wanted to mention?

Ah! I forgot to mention that now when I play with Hiko-san, I actually play an electric organ instead of a pump organ so that it can be loud enough. I haven’t released anything since about 2004, but I’m looking forward to putting out something new soon!

Well, I’m excited to hear it!

Thank you, I’m excited too.

So you’re still performing with Hiko-san pretty often?

I played with Hiko-san three times last year. [“Last year,” at the time of speaking, was 2023. -Ed.] We haven’t played at all this year, but I’d love to.

I think that’s just about everything I wanted to ask! Thank you so much for giving me your time.

I appreciate that you already had so much knowledge about me! That makes me happy. Thank you! ✿

Thanks for reading this twelfth installment of once bitten, twice shy. Sorry I sat on this interview for so long. I did this over a year ago, and it was actually supposed to be for Tone Glow. I took so long to transcribe this that TG kind of unofficially went defunct, and I got the okay to self-publish it instead. Better late than never, I suppose, especially considering this is the only interview with Uehara-san you can read in English. She’s one of my all-time favorite musicians and it was a real dream to speak with her, so I hope I did her justice.

As ever: if you appreciate the newsletter, consider hitting the Ko-fi link and donating. I’ve got quite the backlog of things I have not published because I’ve been buried under the weight of the world. If you still like me and wanna read my stuff, let me know. My bruised ego needs a little kiss.

Take care, okay? See you next time. 💜

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Yousei Suzuki is a guitarist and label owner based in Osaka, Japan. He founded Senri Records to express his love for American roots music, releasing his own compositions alongside other musicians that embody the label’s ethos. On April 4th, 2022, I corresponded with Suzuki via email for an installment of Bandcamp Daily’s Tape Label Report. Senri has been on hiatus since 2019, but returned this month with a stunning new album. To celebrate the release of Suzuki’s Riverside Music, I’m publishing the full interview. I was only able to ask him four questions, but his responses were very thoughtful. I’ve also provided both the English and Japanese transcripts. (Thanks to Ryo Miyauchi for translating!) Enjoy. :->

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Shy: Could you share the story of how your label began?

Yousei Suzuki: I wanted to contribute to music somehow, so I started Senri Records. I wanted to introduce music from Japan to all over the world. I started the label during a period in time when I hurt my finger and couldn’t play any instruments. I once had an opportunity to put out a tape from this label called Scissor Tail Editions. That’s when I learned that there was this method of releasing limited runs of cassettes, and I thought it was a really fun idea. There was also Tobira Records in Japan. I also looked at Sunshine Ltd. and John Fahey of Takoma Records as a model.

You release a lot of your own music, with an influence from classic American blues guitarists. How did you develop a connection with blues guitar?

During the ‘90s, I liked alternative music. I really liked Beck in particular, and I became aware of country blues from his covers of Mississippi John Hurt and Skip James, who I also covered. I was really taken back to hear him play in this tuning called open D minor that had this really distinct ring to it.

By the mid-2000s, I was uploading my own music and searching for lesser known musicians on MySpace. I found about artists like John Fahey and Robbie Basho there, and music by Jack Rose, James Blackshaw, Cian Nugent, Micah Blue Smaldone, Harris Newman—all of whom were influenced by those two artists. I thought their music sounded so new even though they were legacy artists.

I started to go to Po’boy Records in Osaka in the 2010s, where they stocked a lot of American roots music. I had the chance to listen to a wide variety, from blues, folk, country, bluegrass, jazz, to mountain music. I learned a lot at Po’boy Records and met a lot of musicians there. Unfortunately, they shut down in 2021 due to COVID. A great memory I had was the owner performing John Fahey’s “In Christ There Is No East or West” for me when I went there for the first time.

The music on Senri feels distinctly Japanese, even with the strong influence of American acoustic styles. Can you talk about other influences that have shaped the music? Other styles, or even specific people or locations?

I think there’s definitely a trait in Japanese people to turn international influences into something Japanese. The trait in us as living on an island, our love of nature (and closeness with the sounds of nature), the Japanese DNA, the influence from video game music, the noise of the city, influences from music passed down throughout history, I can give a lot of theories. I get the impression of music by European or American guitarists being more structured, while music by Japanese guitarists is more abstract. There’s this music called gagaku in Japanese culture with this strange space, and maybe there are influences from that. It’s hard to give a clear answer. Maybe the closest is to say that it’s simply in our genes.

Do you have a favorite release on Senri? Is there one that feels most special or representative of the label?

For a release that feels Senri-like, it would be Matsumoto Tomohito’s First Demo. Senri Records has three themes of “acoustic, private, primitiveness,” and this one really fits them all. His first recordings were recorded straight to the cassette player, and those sounds of the acoustic guitar are very raw.

Table Music Meeting’s Kusa Ga Yureteru is also a favorite album of mine. Whenever I listen to their music, I imagine the seaside city where they live. I love the intimate atmosphere. ✿

鈴木庸聖

大阪出身ギターリスト、そしてレーベルオーナーの鈴木庸聖。ルーツミュージックへの感心から、Senri Recordsは立ち上げ、彼自身の作曲を含め、その興味を示す様々なミージャシャンの音楽をリリースしている。Senriは2019年から休止していたのだが、今月、鈴木自ら作った新しいアルバム、Riverside Musicをリリースしたのだ。その素敵なリリースを機に、私が、去年の4月にBandcamp DailyのTape Label Reportの為に取材した、鈴木とのインタビューをフルに英語版と日本語共に載せる。彼に四つしか質問を送れなかったのだが、思慮深く回答してくれた。(訳: 宮内凌)

シャイ： レーベルを始めたきっかけは何でしたか？

鈴木庸聖： 音楽に広く貢献したいと思いがあり、Senri Recordsを始めました。日本の音楽を広く世界に紹介した気持ちがありました。指を痛めて演奏できない時期があり、その時に始めました。以前、Scissor Tail Editionsというレーベルから、カセットのリリースをしてもらう機会がありました。その時、カセットでの少部数でのリリースの仕方があると知り、とても面白いと思いました。日本でもTobira Recordsなどもありました。Sunshine Ltd.やJohn FaheyのTakoma Recordsも参考にしました。

鈴木さんの楽曲からは、アメリカのブルースギタリスト達の音楽の影響を感じるんですが、ブルースギターとはどういう出会いだったんですか？どういう風に奥深くなっていったんですか？

90年代、私はオルタナティブミュージックが好きでした。特にBeckがお気に入りのミュージシャンで、彼がMississippi John Hurt、Skip Jamesの曲をカバーしていました。その時に初めてカントリーブルースを認識しました。自分でもSkip Jamesのカバーもしました。オープンDmという独特な響きがあるチューニングで弾いているのを知り大変驚きました。

2000年代の半ば頃には、MySpaceで自分の音楽をネット上にアップロードしたり、未知の音楽家を探していました。そこでJohn FaheyやRobbie Bashoを知り、彼らから影響を受けたJack Rose、James Blackshaw、Cian Nugent、Micah Blue Smaldone、Harris Newmanの音楽を知りました。彼らは伝統的でありながら、大変新しい音楽をやっていると思いました。2010年代からは大阪にあったPo’boy Recordsに通い始めました。そこでは多くのアメリカのルーツミュージックを扱っていました。ブルース、フォーク、カントリー、ブルーグラス、ジャズ、マウンテンミュージック等、幅広く聴く機会がありました。Po’boy Recordsで多くの事を学び、ミュージシャンとの出会いがありました。残念ながらこのレコード屋はコロナの影響もあり、2021年に閉店してしまいました。初めて訪れた時に店主がJohn Faheyの「In Christ There Is No East or West」を演奏してくれたのは良い思い出です。

Senriからリリースされている音楽からは、アメリカからのアコースティックスタイルの音楽から影響を受けているのに関わらず、日本っぽさがはっきり伝わります。他に、どういうものが音楽に影響しているのですか？違う音楽、場所、人物でもいいので、教えてください。

海外からの影響を日本的に変換するという、日本人の特徴は確かにあると思います。島国という国土の特徴、自然が豊か（自然の音が身近）、日本人のDNA、ゲーム音楽からの影響、都市の喧騒、伝統的な音楽からの影響、様々な仮説は挙げれます。

ヨーロッパやアメリカのギタリストの方がより構築された音楽、日本のギタリストの方がより抽象的な音楽、である印象を受けます。日本の伝統的な音楽に雅楽というものがありますが、不思議な間がある音楽です。そういう伝統的な音楽からの影響があるかもしれません。実際ははっきり答えるのが難しい問題です。もしかしたらDNAの特徴というのが一番近いのかもしれません。

Senriから出したもので、鈴木さんが一番好きなリリースはありますか？自分にとって一番特別なもの、それかSenriにとって、最も象徴的なリリースといえば、何ですか？

Senri RecordsぽいというところではMatsumoto TomohitoのFirst Demoです。Senri Recordsのテーマは「acoustic」「private」「primitiveness」の3つですが、この作品はまさに合致しています。彼の初めての録音はカセットテープのレコーダーで録音されていて、そのアコースティックギター音はとても生々しい音です。

Table Music Meetingの「草がゆれてる」も好きなアルバムです。彼らの音楽を聴くと、彼らが住む海沿いの町の風景を思い起こします。親密な空気感がとても好きです。 ✿

Thank you for reading this seventh installment of once bitten, twice shy. I’ve wanted to share this transcript for a while, and I finally have a good excuse! Yousei’s new album Riverside Music is really nice, so please give it a listen. (And have a look at his blog, where he wrote a little bit about what the album means to him.) You also have the option to buy the entire Senri catalog for less than 60 bucks, which I think is totally worth it. That’s what I did! Poke around on the Bandcamp page and you’ll find it.

I’d like to give a special shoutout to Ryo Miyauchi, my friend who helped me with translation. This interview wouldn’t have been possible without them. Give their newsletter This Side of Japan a look! It’s been an indispensable resource for keeping on top of new releases coming out of Japan. I’d be so lost without it!

I have a brand new post scheduled for Monday, so look forward to that. I’ll also be doing a sequel to the Buddy List on the same day I posted it last year. Three posts in December, wowie! Christmas came early for you. (Maybe drop a donation in the Ko-fi if you’re feeling the holiday spirit?) See ya around. 💜

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Todd Luke is a video game developer, musician, and multimedia artist from southern California. He started making games in 2011. In 2014, he started work on an adventure game called 24 Killers, expanding the concept from a flash game of the same name he created the year before. Development was originally funded via Kickstarter. The game is now available on Steam. I talked to Todd on March 11th, 2023 on Zoom to discuss his development process, influences, and more.

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Shy Clara Thompson: First off, congrats on the launch!

Todd Luke: Thank you!

How has that experience been? More busy than you expected? Fielding bug reports and stuff like that.

It was a lot quieter than I expected. The first part, maybe the first half of the launch day, I was just kind of sitting and watching the Discord and the Steam communities and there was nothing coming in about bugs. I was kind of shocked by that.

Were you expecting a lot?

Oh yeah, especially with an increased volume of players. I was expecting a lot more.

So it’s been pretty chill, then?

Yeah. As people have played more of the game, there have been reports coming in, but nothing super major. I guess my fear was that everybody would start playing on launch day and just get a black screen and not be able to play the game at all, but luckily that wasn’t the case.

You’ve been working on this game for a long time. The Kickstarter was put up in 2014, right?

Yeah.

And even before that, you had the flash game. I’m curious how your philosophy of designing the game changed over this period of time, because it looks really different from the old mockups. Has your goal of what you wanted to accomplish changed?

I wanted to expand on the flash game and make it a bigger town. It was sort of like a whodunnit murder mystery. Then, as I started making it, it turned into this adventure game where there’s different things to do around the town and different characters to talk to. It kept growing, and I think the biggest change, for me, is when a friend introduced me to Love-de-lic—the creators of Chulip and moon: Remix RPG Adventure. After seeing those games I’m like “these are the kinds of games I’ve always wanted to make,” and maybe I didn’t even know it. That changed my design philosophy a lot.

The other thing was that I switched from pixel art to rendered 3D graphics. That was kind of out of necessity because I wasn’t really happy with the pixel art, and it was hard for me to do a large volume of it and be consistent. With the 3D I found it was easier for me to produce a lot more art.

So more that it was easier to get your ideas out than a conscious stylistic change?

Probably a little bit of both. I do love the old pre-rendered look of PS1 games and earlier stuff on the Super Nintendo or Genesis.

Is there a particular visual influence you had in mind? I’m sure the main callback is moon, but are there others?

Also Digimon World for the PS1.

Oh, that’s so cool! I love that game.

The background art in that game is just amazing. And of course, Final Fantasy VII had beautiful pre-rendered backgrounds.

How deep in development were you when you got introduced to Love-de-lic and changed your direction?

I thought I was pretty deep (laughs), but then the game just kept growing. I thought “okay, this game’s pretty much done and I’m happy with it.” I felt like it was pretty constrained, but after I got introduced to Love-de-lic my idea about what I wanted to make started expanding. I’d have to look back, but it was probably a year or two after the Kickstarter.

Has all of the time since then been, I guess, recalibrating? Because you realized that you made a game that wasn’t exactly the one you wanted to make. So you basically had to start over and make a new game?

That’s what it felt like. It’s pretty much an entirely new game from what was on Kickstarter.

Do you like the comparisons to Love-de-lic? Do you invite that sort of thing, or would you rather people examine 24 Killers on its own terms?

I’m flattered that people would compare it to those games. [Yoshiro] Kimura is amazing. I love watching the “indie game uncle” videos he puts up on YouTube. What’s neat is that a lot of people have been saying “this is clearly inspired by Love-de-lic and Onion Games, but stands up on its own.”

I love Kimura’s videos too! Do you feel like you’ve learned anything about game design from them? Have you internalized anything?

I think so. In general, his whole attitude is very humble. He’s curious about things and the way he looks at the world is really cool. It seems like he does a lot of traveling around the world—which I haven’t really done—but I just like his curiosity. His games are influenced a lot by his life experience.

Like, for me, a lot of the dialogue in 24 Killers is influenced by people I’ve met in jobs I’ve had over the years—customers, coworkers, conversations I’ve had where I’m like “what?” Weird conversations, you know, that would stick with me and I’d go right home at the end of the day.

You were working at a gas station, right?

Yeah, I worked at a gas station from 2015 to the end of 2021—so close to seven years.

And you got all kinds of weird people coming in?

Oh yeah, all the time.

Is there a specific interaction that directly correlates to something you put into the game?

So Gunther, the parakeet in the game, he’s kind of like a cowboy. At one point he says “cash on the barrelhead.” That was directly from this really gruff cowboy guy that came into the store and came up to me to pay for his stuff, and that’s what he said to me. “Cash on the barrelhead!” (laughs). That just stuck with me and I thought “I gotta put that in the game somewhere.”

There are a lot of silly little lines in the game that make me curious how you came up with them. I’ve tried writing game dialogue myself, and it’s hard to strike that balance between something natural and something fun and unusual. The best shortcut to that, I think, is to draw from life experience. So it’s really cool that yours has been useful.

Right!

Do you consider yourself much of a writer?

I don’t think so. Really, a lot of the dialogue in the game—I had a text file on my computer just called “24K writing ideas” and if I had an idea or a weird interaction or a weird thought or something funny or anything I felt would be interesting for a character to say, I just popped it into there. If I was writing a character, then I would draw on that and form a personality around one of those little phrases or ideas.

Do you feel like next time you make a game, writing it would be easier now that you have a process. Does it get any easier?

I don’t think so! There were times that it was so tough to sit down and write things, and it’s just gotta be done, you know? I really don’t enjoy that part of it, but that’s how I approached it.

Is that the part you enjoy doing the least?

In terms of actually making the game, probably. I guess when I got into it I would start enjoying it, but to actually start—to sit down and get into that mode of writing—it was really difficult for me.

The other thing I really don’t enjoy is marketing stuff. That is just tough.

I totally understand why somebody would rather have somebody else do it for them. As a writer, sometimes I have to sell myself, and I hate doing it! I just wanna put it out there and hope the people that need it find it (laughs). With a game, there’s that financial aspect that requires you to stay on top of it.

Yeah. With Steam, they made it pretty easy with the Curator Connect system where you can search curators and add them to a list and send your game to them through that. That made it somewhat easier. I also had a good friend helping me with marketing, and giving me advice from the sidelines about stuff. I have no clue when it comes to that kind of thing.

For me, the way I heard about 24 Killers was through the Love-de-lic Lounge Discord server. I noticed you’re in there! They’ve been excited for it for quite a while, so I was sort of passively aware of the game. I’m curious how being part of these communities might have influenced your approach to making the game or marketing the game.

It’s been cool seeing all these communities interested in these types of games. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have even known there was a market for it. I wish I was a little more involved in them; I lurk most of the time in Discord servers and forums. I was kind of thinking about how increased interest in Love-de-lic has opened the door to release games like this. I think a lot of people are enjoying these types of games now that wouldn’t have in the past, and they gave them a shot, maybe, after trying moon or other stuff from Onion Games like Dandy Dungeon.

It blows me away constantly how—I don’t know if you follow romhacking or fan translation scenes—but there’s really cool stuff happening almost every day. It feels like more people are into obscure games than there used to be years ago. In the communities I’m in, we were excited for 24 Killers. There’s definitely an appetite for this stuff.

Do you think COVID had anything to do with that? People being at home and digging more into online communities?

Yes, absolutely! People had more time to spend in communities, a lot of people spent that time learning new languages and programming. I think it’s definitely a factor. I spent a lot of my COVID time studying Japanese so I could enjoy this stuff more.

Right on!

So you did pretty much all the work on 24 Killers yourself. Is it hard to find the time to develop all these skills and keep them sharp?

Yeah. You might go months in programming mode without touching Blender, and then you have to go back to that and have a refresher. That was probably the hardest thing. More infrequently, releasing trailers and doing video editing was really hard to get back into. Or web design stuff for sites, there’s just so much stuff to switch back to. I would need a refresher almost every time.

Did you ever wanna ask someone else for help?

I have asked people for help and tried to bring people on board, but it never really worked out. I always felt kind of guilty, too—I don’t have any resources to pay people for their help. I didn’t want to have somebody come and do a ton of art or programming or music and not be able to compensate them for their time.

That’s rough. I have to imagine the Kickstarter margins were very slim, especially with how long the development time has been.

Yeah.

So it was just a financial thing, choosing to do everything solo?

Yeah, it was mostly financial. I released the beta of the game almost exactly a year ago. I was looking at the changelog and I released the changelog when I started the beta and it was like March 12th or something like that, and that’s the first time I had people try the game. That's been the most collaborative experience I’ve had—working on this, getting feedback from people, that’s been awesome. It made me think that I don’t wanna do this again without a team.

Did you get a lot of creative feedback, or mostly just bug reporting? Do you ask for advice on the story or art direction?

It was everything; pacing, bug fixes, things that were unclear about the story. The amount the game has changed in the past year was huge because of the help that I’ve had.

One of my favorite things about the game, personally, is the music. How long have you been making music?

I think I picked up guitar when I was 14. I started doing home recording on the computer and found FruityLoops, or FL Studio, and started making pop music and electronic music with it. I started making a lot of music when I started making games in 2011. Games are mostly what I make music for.

What are your main influences?

My favorite band of all time is Prefab Sprout.

Oh, heck yes!

You know who they are? Awesome! As far as guitar and lyrics, they’re my biggest influence. I listen to video game music a lot. I’ve been listening to a lot of Dreamcast soundtracks lately. I’ve been listening to the Shenmue soundtracks. I like Natalie Merchant. She’s from the ‘90s, but she still plays shows and records. I like a lot of classic ‘80s stuff too.

I see on your website that you make little resin figures. When did you get into doing that?

I started getting into this YouTube channel called CraftsMan. Have you heard of that one?

No, I haven’t!

It’s cool. I was watching him make little figures and thought “man, I gotta try that.” I just followed what he was doing and started messing around with little Shabby heads for the Happy Shabby Games logo as practice. I made a figure of Oyaji—I made a bunch of those and hand painted them. I started making the Whisper charms too. Resin stuff’s fun!

I love the Sleepy Puppy. It’s so cute. So did you know that Yoshiro Kimura does little hand-painted clay figures?

I did not know what.

Yeah, there’s a really cool interview—it’s up on YouTube somewhere—and he’s explaining this board game he made with little potato figures. Your resin art reminded me a lot of them, so it’s cool that there’s this other little parallel you have!

When I was a kid I made this game, it was called Drop Cards, and my dad still has them at his house somewhere. You had this little arena—like a cardboard box—and there was this papier-mâché egg with little feet so it could stand up. And what you would do was blow up a balloon and put it inside of this egg, then you get these little cards, and each card would have a little sharp pointy object on them. You would take turns, each player would draw cards, and then you would use your card and drop them onto your opponent’s egg and try to pop their balloon.

Wow. And how old were you when you made this?

I was super young, maybe in middle school.

What do you think of Drop Cards now? Are you still proud of that?

(laughter) Yeah, I mean, I think my dad is the only person who ever played it with me. I wasn’t asking my friends to come over and play it or anything.

So were you really into board games?

We didn’t play a whole lot of board games. I think I just like being creative and making stuff. I was really into Pokémon cards back then, too. I thought making my own trading card game would be fun.

Getting back to 24 Killers. Playing the game, I thought it was interesting how it’s clearly got the moon and Chulip inspiration, but the difficulty is a lot more manageable. There’s just the right amount of cryptic puzzle solving that doesn’t make things too obvious, but it doesn’t leave you stumped for a super long time. Was the difficulty of those games on your mind at all?

I found Chulip very difficult, and a lot of times I had no idea what to do. The sniper that you encounter—I had to look up a guide for that. There is just no way I would have figured out how to get near it.

Yeah, me too. The guide stayed open while I played Chulip.

Yeah (laughs). I didn’t necessarily want people to have to do that. I’m enjoying seeing people talk with each other and ask questions about what to do next. That’s been kind of a battle. There’s a balance of something being too difficult, like Chulip, or too easy. For a long time, I’ve wanted to put some kind of item in the game that points players to what their next objective is, but at the same time trying to maybe insert a cutscene that gives players a hint instead of... like in modern game design where you always have that pointer to the next objective.

I think the use of Mole giving you hints and the letters that tell you what you need to do—where you still need to remember and internalize what they say—that’s a good balance. It reminds me of Link’s Awakening. Have you played it?

Very little. I’ve only played the older games on an emulator.

I think it’s cool the way it only vaguely gestures what you need to do. The information is there, but it’s up to you how to parse it out. I feel a little bit of that in 24 Killers.

Are there times in Link’s Awakening where you maybe only hear something once that you need to progress?

Yes, absolutely.

I was curious about that, because there’s some stuff like that in 24 Killers where if you skip through a dialogue you might have a hard time remembering what’s next.

If there’s something I feel like I might forget, I actually write it down. I keep a little journal when I’m playing through games. It’s fun to go back and see what your thought process was. You see what you thought was important at the time. Sometimes you might have been right, sometimes it’s not so important. It’s fun not being sure! 24 Killers has the right amount of that mystery, I think.

One thing we added recently. Wait, how far are you in the game?

Maybe about halfway, based on how much time some people have said it took them.

I don’t wanna spoil anything, but there’s a point in the game a lot of people get stuck at, and I’ve added so many things to help people try to get over that hump. It’s been a constant battle. I added a cutscene, I think yesterday or the night before, just to give one more little push for players to make it over that without taking all of the mystery out of it.

Did you run into that much in beta testing?

There were some things that were so specific, like not getting a cutscene unless you land something at a perfect angle. Really ridiculous stuff that at the time I’m like “man, this is awesome.” The reality of having other people play it that aren’t making the game is very different.

Right. You have the hindsight. Does it bother you having to compromise on those ideas that you thought were really cool?

I think it’s pretty fun. It’s kind of a challenge. My friend Mike, who’s helping with marketing, gave me advice on receiving feedback. A lot of times when people give feedback they’ll let you know their idea of how to fix the thing. He told me “you don’t have to listen to their suggestion, but listen to why they’re suggesting it.” You want to make a change that’s in line with your vision but still addresses the root of the problem. I think it’s fun to figure stuff out like that.

And there are things that people suggest that are just straight-up good ideas, and I’ve used some of those!

I’m curious how you came up with the Foam dimensions with the different effects on save files. I don’t know if I’ve seen anything like that in another game.

I listen to a lot of science and futurism podcasts on YouTube—things like Isaac Arthur or John Michael Godier or even PBS Space Time. A lot of the time what they’re talking about is so over my head, but I just enjoy listening to it. They talk a lot about the multiverse and different realities, and that influenced the 24 Killers story a lot, and also the save file system.

The idea of a Foam or bubble universe came from seeing images in these podcasts of universes in bubbles. To me, they looked like foam. That’s where I got the name for The Foam.

How do you feel like the save effects affect how people approach the game? Some of them make the game easier, but some can also make the game more challenging.

The Cursed Blessing limits your in-game days to 24, and it deletes your save file if you don’t complete it in that time.

That’s intense!

The system was put in to provide an easy way to give the game replayability. I’d also love to see people speedrun the game. I think it would be really neat to see different categories based on what kinds of Blessings are used. Like, Cursed Blessing with Fast Forward and Claw, stuff like that.

I saw that somebody found a sequence break day one.

Gosh. Many people found that and were kind of confused and thought it was the intended route. I was happy it didn’t break their game more or halt their progress. It was confusing a lot of people, because I kind of hinted at there being a place in the game that a lot of people were getting stuck, and because of that sequence break it was compounding the issue—they maybe weren’t getting some dialogue they would have gotten or playing some necessary things for progressing the story.

You ended up having to take it out, right?

I did, yeah. Hopefully. We’ll see.

It’s interesting to see a developer’s perspective with regards to speedruns. Sometimes people like to leave bugs in because they’re cool, and other times you have to do something because it might be impacting too many of the casual players.

I would have liked to keep it in if it was maybe more obscure and not so many people were finding it.

Did you play many other games for research? Either for inspiration, or to see how other games deal with problems you were encountering?

I did. My style of playing games is that I finish very few. Most of them are too long for me, so I like to skim games for a few hours and get a feel for them until I’m satisfied and get the idea. Very recently I played Eastward, a longer adventure game kind of similar to 24 Killers. I played a lot of stuff on emulators, too. I think as far as playing games for inspiration, I’ll play a few hours and absorb it—maybe not specifically playing for “research,” but that’s how I’ve been influenced by games.

I think that’s a good approach. It’s alright to play games just enough that you understand what it’s going for. In that way, it’s really fun because the first few hours are where you get the bulk of a game’s presentation and see how they pace out their key ideas. It’s fun to start games, but not always fun to finish them.

Yeah (laughs). There are games like Final Fantasy Tactics, where I’ve restarted it so many times. The last time I played it, I really got into it and finally got past that surface level enjoyment of it and got really absorbed in the systems.

That’s a good feeling, when it finally clicks!

Yeah!

How do you feel about the way you developed the endgame of 24 Killers? You don’t have to get into specifics since I’m not there yet, but did it feel satisfying the way you wrapped it up?

That’s a tough question. I think the end of a game—in my case, it maybe didn’t get as much love as the beginning of the game. I think you meet more interesting characters at the end of the game, like Martin or Gunther, and I think the Blessings kind of pull it all together. The game ends a little abruptly. It felt a little overwhelming, like, how do I end an experience? It’s kind of daunting. In a lot of games, it’s this big climax, but 24 Killers is kind of quiet. I think there is definitely closure, but not a giant fanfare. I think it’s consistent with the theme of the game, where you’re participating in this giant project of expanding the Foam. It’s like, okay, you finished a save file; here’s a Blessing and now you help to fill out the Foam even more.

I’m definitely satisfied with how it turned out. I think what I’m feeling is pressure, comparing myself to other big adventure games. Feeling the need to have that in my own game, you know? Not that the end of the game isn’t special to me or that I didn’t put my heart into it, but comparing my game to other games, I think “did I do enough?”

So far, I haven’t heard anyone saying that they think the game falls off at the end, so that’s been encouraging!

What’s one thing that you love most about the game?

I like wandering around the island, and the spaces of the game. One thing that was inspiring to me about each map is that in town, between the downtown areas are these little alleyways. They’re open to the public. You can just walk down these alleyways and people have their little gardens, and it’s just kind of a neat space to walk through. It reminds me of that enjoyable feeling of wandering around in Chulip.

I think that’s probably my favorite part of the game. ✿

Thanks for reading the third installment of once bitten, twice shy. It was an absolute blast to chat with Todd about what is likely to be my favorite game of the year. Please give 24 Killers a look!

I plan to talk to plenty more people doing things that are interesting to me. If you’re on board, consider subscribing to the newsletter. It’s free, and always will be! However, if you wanna support me, donating via Ko-fi is an option. Just hit the button below. (There’s even an option to set up a recurring monthly donation, if you really love me!) Whether you do or don’t, you have my thanks for checking in.

Be safe. Love you, buddy. 💜

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